Ep 02: Could this be the single biggest threat to your retirement?

Episode Transcript

Welcome: 0:03
Welcome to the Real Talk Retirement Show, where we explore the financial side of retirement and beyond. Whether you’re currently retired or planning for the future, we offer real, relatable conversations about money and personal finances. Most importantly, we dive into all these topics using Real Talk. Now, let’s get real about your money and your retirement. Now, let’s get real about your money and your retirement.

Brian Graff: 0:28
Welcome everyone to another episode of the Real Talk Retirement Show. My name is Brian Graff. With me again today is my colleague and co-host, tracy Burke. Tracy, thanks for joining for episode number two. Great to be here, brian. Yeah, I think we have a good one today, tracy, and I guess inevitably I’ll let our viewers and listeners decide if it’s a good one, but it’s definitely one that I’m excited about, because today we’re going to be talking about how emotions and behaviors impact investing.

Brian Graff: 0:57
And, tracy, make no mistake, you and I are in the business of numbers, right? Numbers are such a big part of our work, lives, work lives we can’t avoid them. Here at Conrad Siegel, we’ve always said numbers matter, right, we’re surrounded by a bunch of actuaries in here, and they and they definitely do. But more than the numbers, the people is what really matters the most. Without the people, the numbers mean nothing. So we are, we are definitely in the people business. We want to help people, and people are fascinating, right? We are all driven by our emotions, aren’t we? We’re emotional about how much sleep we get at night, what we’re going to have for breakfast, lunch and dinner the next day, what our workday looks like, how our friends and family are doing. We’re just emotional people. So I think, tracy, it’s only natural that we get emotional when it comes to our money and our finances, right?

Tracy Burke: 1:42
Yeah, that’s for sure, and this is a super important topic. Sometimes we don’t, as you said, we don’t like to focus or talk about that emotional side or our behavior, especially guys right, that’s something we don’t wear on our shirt sleeve there, but I think we’re gonna have a lot of fun today talking about that. But it’s also human nature, you know, this is just. This is how things go right, among other things. So, as we were thinking through this topic today, one quote to come to mind was from Tony Robbins, and his quote is the single biggest threat to your financial well-being is your own brain. And, as you know, every time I see that or read it, I think, wow, that’s so true. It’s almost like that little guy that’s sitting on your shoulder. You know, every time I see that or read, I think, wow, that’s so true. Uh, it’s almost like that, that little guy that’s sitting on your shoulder, you know, constantly telling you what to do. I don’t know if you had that.

Tracy Burke: 2:31
Oh yeah, I got a couple of those guys, yep, yeah, and they keep popping up and and some, a lot of times it’s the negativity side of it, right, but sometimes, again, that brain and and our emotions can certainly get into it.

Tracy Burke: 2:42
So, as as human beings, you know, we’re just prone to making, you know, bad or dumb decisions when dealing with money. That’s just how we’re set up, right For sure, and sometimes it’s those. You know, maybe we have mental biases, or I like to refer to as blind spots, things that maybe we’re not quite aware of, that are out there, but you know those things are very prevalent with coming, you know, when it comes to money. So you know, as we think through this, you know everything we do from investing standpoint, we could, we can nail it all we could do. You know everything that we’re supposed to do from a textbook standpoint, but then we all of a sudden can just mess it up with the emotion with one emotional mistake. Right that those type of things happen. And I think back to a mentor I had many years ago now. He said, tracy, it can take 20 years to build a reputation, but you can destroy it in five minutes.

Brian Graff: 3:37
Absolutely yeah, we see it all the time.

Tracy Burke: 3:39
Yeah, by doing something emotional or something dumb, and that happens a lot of time, and money as well. And then another quote that Tony Robbins saw before. It was something like 80% of your success is due to the psychology of things and the other 20% is the mechanics. So, again important topic it’s surprisingly difficult to invest rationally. So, you know, brian, something that comes to my mind, you know, and this is something we hear from client or see from clients interaction all the time, you know. So when markets go down, what’s that first reaction that a lot of investors have?

Brian Graff: 4:18
Oh, people want to sell Tracy. They’ve got a statement in the mail or they logged on to their you know different financial accounts. They see a drop in value and they want to run from that bad situation. Again, that’s human nature. We see something go bad, we want to get out of it, but rationally I mean, that’s probably the worst thing you can do at that time. Once the market really drops, you want to stay true to your retirement planning goals, the plan you set forth for yourself, and kind of selling low is the worst thing you can do. In reality, if you’re going to do anything and not saying you have to, sometimes staying the course is the best thing you do. But those really become opportune times to actually buy more of those riskier investments that are a little bit down in value. But again, the human nature element always creeps in and we want to get out of a situation that’s currently bad.

Tracy Burke: 5:03
Yeah.

Brian Graff: 5:04
So, yeah, I think that whole idea of just kind of setting a plan, sticking to it, not checking in to your account too often, is probably the best thing you can do during those market downturns. Tracy, let’s talk about some other common feelings when it comes to investing. What are some other things that comes into play?

Tracy Burke: 5:21
Yeah, so fear something that and in all aspects of life. You know, sometimes there’s fear and sometimes it’s real. But in terms of investing, you know, having that fear can really lead to selling at the wrong time or even buying at the wrong time. If we have that fear that, my goodness, the stock market’s going to go down and sometimes we hit that sell button again, panicking, or even markets at an all-time high. This isn’t the right time to buy. You just mentioned buying low and selling high, which is what we want to do. But there are times when stock markets are at a high and people say, well, nope, I’m fearful that this was the wrong time, right, because if I buy now and the market goes down, that’s the wrong. So it seems like we can never win, sometimes in the fear category.

Brian Graff: 6:13
Yeah, I agree, Tracy, and that’s why I think that the concept of dollar cost averaging is so important, which is where you kind of continue to invest the same amount of money periodically throughout the year. Which where you think about, like retirement plan, investing 401Ks, 403Bs. I mean, that’s the beauty of those types of plans You’re just having a certain dollar amount coming out of your paycheck being invested every pay period, so every two weeks or once a month, and you’re buying at all kinds of different prices throughout the year. That’s dollar cost averaging, Tracy, and is that? Do you agree that that’s probably an important thing for investors to do?

Tracy Burke: 6:46
Yeah for sure. And even on the back end too, right, even when people are taking money out of their investments later in life. You know, just doing it sort of that, you know, dollar cost averaging, almost reverse approach, and taking money out, so yeah, that’s almost that fear of missing out type of thing and we’ll probably circle back to that in a little bit. But a lot of times when greed you’re sort of ignoring some of those risks out there and you’re chasing performance, hey well, that stock or that sector or whatever that asset just really is taken off and it’s done well and I want more. So sometimes, instead of cashing in your chips or just being smart about it being overly concentrated, those types of things Regret. Something else that comes to mind. You know, a lot of people will at some point have regret of not doing something, maybe in the past, and maybe there was a missed opportunity and we think well oh, Tracy, how many people have you talked to?

Brian Graff: 7:46
that said, I knew Apple was going to be the next stock and I just couldn’t convince myself to buy it. You know, years and years ago. I mean, you hear it all the time.

Tracy Burke: 7:53
All this regret from investors, yeah, yeah for sure, and fear, you know, of making that mistake. You know I didn’t do it. And then the last sort of emotion that sometime, you know, maybe on the opposite side of it, sometimes is that excitement, and all these are intertwined, of course, but excitement. Sometimes it’s that excitement, and all these are intertwined, of course, but excitement of, hey, I’m in something that’s doing really well, and sometimes maybe people put more into what’s really doing well, chasing performance or whatnot and sometimes then we look back and we’re over-concentrated in a certain stock or a certain asset class and sometimes we just have that overestimation of what’s going to happen and that excitement can lead to some of those components.

Brian Graff: 8:34
Yeah, but again, all human nature feelings and decisions that drive that. So one thing I think is pretty cool, tracy we use a study done by Dalbar in a lot of our presentations and some of our reporting where this company basically looks at the average mutual fund investor right, someone that is more active in managing their own account they’re buying and selling stocks, moving money around. It kind of compares that investor’s performance to the overall stock market, like using benchmarks and something I think is really interesting. A recent study showed that over a 30-year time period the average equity investor so that person that was going in buying stocks, trading, maybe trying to time the market in a lot of situations had an average annual rate of return of roughly 6.8% right, not awful.

Brian Graff: 9:19
That doesn’t sound too shabby. Whereas an investor though that simply invested in the S&P 500 index right that index that is comprised of the largest 500 US company they would have seen a return of nearly 9.7% over that, you know, a year in that same 30 year span. So that’s a gap of nearly 3%. That’s pretty telling, isn’t it.

Tracy Burke: 9:41
That’s really incredible and I mean that 3% gap’s huge. So to put some numbers to, or some you know performance numbers to that, if you had $100,000 30 years ago, as you just said, brian, and put that in the S&P 500 index, you’d have roughly $1.6 million now, just to give our listeners some perspective. So that’s great, right. 100,000, 30 years later turns into 1.6. But if my return was 3% less that lower number, that average equity investor that you just quoted in that study, I would have less than half of that 1.6. I would have just a little over $700,000.

Brian Graff: 10:19
You wouldn’t think that you would never think that on the surface, until you crunch those numbers, it’s powerful, it is. Yeah. So let’s talk a little bit more then, Tracy, about the why behind all this. Why do our emotions often get the best of us when we’re investing?

Tracy Burke: 10:39
Yeah, and a lot of studies have been done on this sort of the why behind it. And so much of these studies come back to that decisions we make are anchored to our past. Our past experiences, especially those in childhood or early, that form sort of who we are right. So as I think back to my own situation during childhood and thinking about, like, what money meant in the family or how that was, it was tough to compare how our family stacked up from a financial standpoint to others and not something that as a child I was thinking about a heck of a lot of other stuff and worried about that. But now as I’m thinking back, you know certainly you know we were somewhat thrifty, the family was somewhat thrifty, we weren’t living lavishly at all. I mean, we were doing vacations and, you know, doing some of the what felt normal at the time and certainly met needs, but there was nothing overboard and we were pretty cautious, or the family was pretty cautious in how we spent money, and so that was my upbringing and sort of my introduction to money and finances, of course. So I didn’t know any differently. So as I got into early adulthood, that’s just how I operated, right, and so it was a little bit more thrifty. So I think one thing I’ve know it’s.

Tracy Burke: 11:51
I think one thing I I’ve seen it’s very tough for people to change their stripes. Uh, and what I mean by that you know sometimes. You know when, when, when folks uh have, you know whatever their money habits are and sometimes then people will be very successfully financially and become very wealthy. But you know a lot. Most of the time I think a lot of folks in that situation they’re not changing their stripes If they were somewhat thrifty or, from that standpoint, just not big spenders. It’s not just a flip of the switch. I don’t know how do you see things, any of your past experiences on this?

Brian Graff: 12:27
Yeah, that’s interesting, tracy, because I would say my childhood was kind of the opposite of yours in a sense. We were certainly by no means rich, but we were definitely upper middle class. I’d say my dad had a really good corporate job and he was very frivolous when it came to spending money, which maybe was to my advantage. As a kid growing up I can picture Christmases going, waking up and there was a big new pinball machine by the tree, right Like right out of the arcade, or a jukebox, you know the time played 45 records. It again dates me a little bit. You know we always had the new gadgets, like you know, whenever a new type of TV or a video game console came out for you kind of tech heads or video game nerds I’m probably talking about Pong and Atari and ColecoVision, so again going way back to the 80s and things like that. But we always kind of had the new shiny things. And I remember him saying as plain as day, tracy, he used to have this quote where he would say, brian, it was paper yesterday, it’s paper today, it’ll be paper tomorrow when talking about money. Of course that’s when cash was king, and back in the 80s Nowadays I guess he would probably say, brian, it was plastic today, and or maybe digital or crypto, you know, whatever he might say, but the idea was just, it’s just money, let’s spend it. So we had a lot of you know, a lot of nice things like that growing up.

Brian Graff: 13:40
But then I would say, later in life, when I got into high school and college, you kind of the opposite happened. I saw, I saw my family, my dad in particular, start to struggle a little bit. You know he got burned out by the corporate job, tried a couple of small businesses, passion projects that he had the best intentions with but did not work out. And I saw him dipping into his retirement plan, doing anything he could, you know, to save the house and to keep the family afloat. So it was like two incredibly different experiences.

Brian Graff: 14:05
And you know you talked about having that person on your shoulder earlier on there. So I definitely still have that one, you know, that devil on my one shoulder that just buy it, brian, you know your kids will love it. You know, just bring it home. But then the other one is saying don’t make a mistake. You know, use that money and save it. You don’t want to end up in a situation you know where you’re using all your retirement money now. So I am, and we do our best to you know, make good decisions based on his experience. But that’s just kind of you know who we are and innate to what we do.

Tracy Burke: 14:36
Absolutely yeah.

Brian Graff: 14:38
So yeah. So something else, trace. We’ll move into the idea of this, something we call overconfidence bias as well. When we talk about the whys and how our emotions get the best of us as their portfolio and they go through the roof and did really well and he feels really confident.

Brian Graff: 15:05
He pounds the chest a little bit and thinks that, wow, this must have more to do with my superior skill as a stock picker than maybe just luck itself, and it probably had more to do with the market. And then say Jim goes down, he buys another stock, puts a lot of money into it because he’s so successful at this and he always knows what’s going to happen. Shortly after he makes that purchase, that stock goes down and Jim loses a lot of money. That’s what we call a bad decision based on overconfidence.

Tracy Burke: 15:33
Yeah, for sure, and I don’t want to call it certain professions either, but there are certain professions that we see people have that overconfidence bias. But I think the takeaway in those situations is really diversification, right, and these are some of the fundamentals that we talk over and over about with investors. They really pay off. But diversify, think over the long term. Don’t make short-term decisions with long-term money. Work with a professional to take some of that emotional side out of it, those type of things, and with all that you know falling into line you know we talked about this earlier a little bit FOMO, the fear of missing out. You know that’s something that is super common and something that we’ve all been there in some way, shape or form, right In all aspects of life. You know we don’t like missing out and maybe some of it’s keeping up with the Joneses or others, but I’ve probably all seen that often media can influence that. You know what you read or what you listen to it can really create some of those emotions that we talked about.

Tracy Burke: 16:44
The excitement in particular that we talked about earlier, and maybe that’s with a specific stock and we’ve referenced that a couple of times, and as we sit here recording this, we’re in the 21st century, right, and we’ll just timestamp it in 21st century, in case you know, brian, they’re listening to us in a couple hundred years from now and listening to this podcast. So here in the 21st century. You know, nvidia is a very hot stock and has been here for a little period of time. Bitcoin, that’s another one, and you know we’ve been hearing a lot about it and it’s creating some of that FOMO with people, right, and when you hear about it, often it’s too late, or maybe it’s not too late, but you’re further along in the game, right. There’s lots of data out there that really reflects that after you start hearing about something and it’s really risen quite high that the next stage, it often is below average, meaning it doesn’t do as well as a lot of the other investors. So it’s just something as we keep thinking through there, something to think through.

Brian Graff: 17:51
Yeah, and when I talk to retirement savers every day again, that’s my job I educate people on retirement and their investments and their retirement plans. Often I hear people call in and say, hey, can I invest in, for example, nvidia stock in my 401k plan, or can I buy Bitcoin? They’re very passionate about it because they’ve heard about, they want to make money, they don’t want to miss out. They have that fear of missing out and usually my answer for the plans we administer is no. I mean, those are too volatile. For example, of investments, there’s not a lot of, especially with Bitcoin, right, it’s just.

Brian Graff: 18:19
I try not to talk people out of investing in those types of investments if they’re passionate about it. But my answer is usually you know, do it outside of your retirement plan, your future savings, use what we call play money money that’s on the sidelines that you know what if you lost half of it, you’re not going to lose any sleep over it, right? So, definitely, if you feel passionate about a stock and you want to play the game a little bit, if you will, you can do it. But remember, try to use money other than especially your retirement savings in doing so.

Tracy Burke: 18:46
Yeah, and I don’t think we’re saying don’t necessarily invest in that stock because it might be a really good one. Sometimes it’s hard to argue, but where the emotions get involved is often we get in or out at the wrong time. So again, if you buy it, successful investors buy low, sell high. So there’s nothing wrong putting some money in there, but let it sort of run its course right. We don’t have to jump out before it’s given us that investment return that we’re looking for.

Brian Graff: 19:19
Yeah. So when you say letting it run its course, so for example, tracy, let’s say somebody buys a stock, they get a tip. They buy a stock, they hold onto it, like you said, let it run its course and five years later really doesn’t go anywhere. It hasn’t really lost a lot, but it hasn’t gained a lot either. Then what do you do? Do you hang in there with it? Do you sell it? Do you buy more of it? Like what do you do after five years of pretty much just a flat growth?

Tracy Burke: 19:41
Yeah, and that’s a tough one. And if you hung in there for first of all for five years, kudos to sort of you know, sort of trying to wait it out or see it. And it all depends on on that particular company. If it’s a good company, you know, it probably still makes sense to hold onto it as you move forward. But again, thinking that long-term approach, so speculating versus, you know, don’t speculate, don’t try to speculate and invest. So focus on that long-term. And we’ve said this multiple times buying low, selling high, so try not to sell it as a loss. But again, it really sort of depends on what that situation is. You can just sort of ride it for the long term. I think our message is we want to invest for the long term, not speculate over the shorter term.

Tracy Burke: 20:32
So the feelings we’ve been talking about these emotions when investing they certainly can be expensive, especially from a mistake standpoint. Certainly can be expensive, especially from a mistake standpoint. Right, as we said, we sometimes get our emotions involved and we’ll make mistakes and that can really cost us at certain points. And then something else we’ve seen is some people will hold on to investments for emotional reasons as well. And so what do I mean by you know, maybe it’s the company they’re working for and and you know they they love the company they’re working for and that that’s great and they want to invest in that company.

Tracy Burke: 21:09
If it’s a publicly traded company, nothing wrong with that. But just be smart about it, don’t let those emotions get involved. Uh, maybe it’s the stock of the company that they or the town that they live in. Maybe they’re, you know there’s, there’s a big company in the town that they live in. They want to do the same thing. Uh, other things. You know, something else we’ve seen pretty commonly is okay, you know, I inherited this stock from my parent, or maybe it was my grandparent, so I can’t sell it Right.

Brian Graff: 21:34
That’s a big one that comes up a lot, yeah, yeah.

Tracy Burke: 21:37
You know I have that emotional attachment and and that that’s fine as long as it’s reasonable. You know that there’s nothing wrong with that and it’s not bad necessarily, you know, especially if you you know if it’s something moderate there. But then where it can get detrimental is really that over-concentration. So we talk about diversification a lot, but that over-concentration where you end up with one or two or a small handful of stocks that blossoms into a large chunk of your portfolio, that’s where it can be a massive risk.

Tracy Burke: 22:12
Over the years I’ve had multiple clients who have that one or two stocks that whether they bought it on their own when it was much lower, or they’ve inherited and it’s done really well and it’s, it’s become massive and it become a massive. You know, 20, 30, 40 percent of their net worth. Sure, you just don’t want to sell it and, um again, that can be super dangerous because what happens if that crashes? And that’s real money. You talked about sort of play money, right? You know, in that case when it gets to be such a big chunk of your net worth, it can really do that. You know I’ve had a client before who said, OK, well, once it gets to this threshold we’re going to sell and that’s a great plan. Yeah, Got to the threshold. Guess what? They didn’t sell it and it’s a way to gets now up here and the same type of thing. You can keep playing that game, but try to set your plan and stick with it and come back.

Brian Graff: 23:05
Great stuff, Tracy, and you know, as we wrap up, we always want to give our listeners and viewers some action items, right? We think this podcast will only be successful if there are some takeaways in there for everybody listening at home. So we talked all day today about emotions and keeping emotions kind of out of investing in your financial life the best we can. But how, Tracy, how do we do it?

Tracy Burke: 23:26
Yeah. So there’s multiple ways, but the first one comes to my mind is sort of sleeping on it. You know I call that the overnight test. Sure, you know, any major decisions in life, it’s best not just to be quick and reactive, right, think about it, resist that urge, sleep about you know, sleep on it, think about what you know, think through it a little bit and not spur the moment. So that’s something that’s probably first and foremost in my mind as an important action item for us today.

Brian Graff: 23:54
Yeah, great point, tracy. And that’s with any major decision in your life, but especially financial decisions it’s always good to sleep on it and just give it that overnight test. Something else I think that investors should do is definitely align their goals with their investment decisions. So, when you think about your overall financial goals, is it really your ultimate goal to pick the next Apple or Nvidia stock, or is it really just having enough money to live a fulfilling retirement, right? Isn’t that the goal for everybody? So focus on the actual goal itself. In this case, you know a successful retirement and ask yourself does this investment that I’m holding, will that inevitably help me reach that goal with a reasonable amount of risk, right? So you have to ask yourself that questions. And then super important write it all down. You know, as I get on with age, tracy, you know I forget what I had for dinner last night, right? So how am I going to remember this major, the goal that I have when it comes to investing? So write it down, put it on a piece of paper or in a spreadsheet or something. Word document. Keep yourself accountable and stick to that long-term plan.

Brian Graff: 24:54
Something else I want to say too, before I turn it back over to you and this, I think, is a really important one, especially what I do every day and talk to retirement investors is don’t check your retirement account balances every single day. Most investors out there are in these daily valued 401k plans where your balance is right there at your fingertips, and when you log into your account the next day, you’ll see it either went up or down, depending on how the stock market performed. Right, but again, don’t do that. Right Like what’s the point? We wouldn’t want you to celebrate too much if the market went up, just like we don’t want you to become dejected if the market went down. It’s just one day over this long term retirement, you know investing horizon, so try not to check your account balances too often, which can lead to those emotional decisions and we want to, like we said, keep them out of it. What else can we do, tracy?

Tracy Burke: 25:39
Yeah, I was going to say that last one, man, it can also drive you crazy, right? Oh for sure it’s the ups and downs as your account balance grows and you see it’s up by X thousand or even more on a daily basis, or down it can be like, wow, I lost X thousands of dollars yesterday and it can really send you off into some emotional distress. So yeah, and then the last one here that I would say last action item I mentioned this a little bit earlier work with a professional advisor, because it’s super critical to work with somebody else on this, because as a professional advisor, we’re in the day-to-day of this, the folks we work with. Their money is real to them and, believe us, it’s real to us too. We take a lot of pride that they’re giving us this confidence and trust in us.

Tracy Burke: 26:36
But we’re taking the emotional side out of it, and it’s even good practice for those of us in the business to work with a professional on our finances as well, because we get emotional on our own finances and that’s the funny thing. I get emotional on our own finances and that’s the funny thing. I get emotional on my own finances and obviously don’t, or try not to, you know to the largest extent with the folks that we work with. So, again, that’s the professional’s job to take that emotions out, stay rational. So, again, you know investors. You know advocate for yourself, ask questions to the advisors you’re working with and ultimately, to feel emotionally, whether it’s connected or satisfied, you just want to know what, feel comfortable with how you’re being invested and comfortable with the advisor you’re working with 100%.

Brian Graff: 27:27
Tracy and good advisors are certainly worth their weight in gold, especially once you get to retirement age. You’re approaching retirement helping you with like spending strategies and tax strategies oh my gosh. There’s so much a good advisor will help you with. But even before you get to that point maybe you’re in the earlier stages of your career there are still professionals you can talk to and take advantage of your retirement plans. Easy options I think that’s a big one too. You know most plans that we administer here at Conrad Siegel.

Brian Graff: 27:54
Investors have the opportunity to go into target retirement date funds or investment portfolios at a risk base, and the great thing about those easy options or those professionally managed options are that they take the emotions out of it. You kind of pick that plan and you know if you look at a statement, if you get a statement in the mail after you know out of it. You kind of pick that plan and if you look at a statement, if you get a statement in the mail after a quarter, that wasn’t so great in the market, you can kind of live with it because, okay, well, I didn’t make those decisions. I know that’s just part of this. Whereas if you pick your own portfolio and you have a bad quarter. Immediately you’re like, okay, what did I do wrong? And you probably didn’t do anything wrong. It’s probably just indicative of how the stock market before, but we automatically think we should have done something different. I’m going to go in, I’m going to change it. So those easy options or those professionally managed solutions are wonderful ways where you can experience good long-term returns and keep your emotions out of the picture. So I just wanted to point that out as well.

Brian Graff: 28:43
All right, tracy, this was a lot of fun. I really enjoyed this topic. I hope everybody out there did too, and I just want to remind all of our listeners to please reach out to us If you have any questions. I told you early on that we are in the business of helping people. We’d love to hear from you. So please email us at podcast at conradsegalcom If you like what you heard today. Share this podcast with your friends, your family members, and please bookmark the page or whatever kids do out there with the podcast these days and tune in for episode number three. So again, tracy, thanks. This is a good time. Have a great rest of your day and look forward to talking to you on the next podcast.

Tracy Burke: 29:21
Thanks.

Welcome: 29:24
Thank you for tuning into today’s show. The Real Talk Retirement Show is created and produced by Conrad Siegel, an advisory firm that specializes in helping people prepare for retirement and beyond. If you want to learn more about our work or meet the team, you can visit conradsegelcom. Information on this show is for educational purposes only and should not be considered personalized investment tax or legal advice. Before making decisions, you should consult with the appropriate professionals for advice that is specific to your situation.